Originally Posted by fegary
No confusion on my part. Maybe you are confusing proof with evidence.
Like Jefferson, there is also plenty of evidence that Jesus existed. As binz said there is nothing that proves he was anything more than a man. You're making a leap that requires
Incorrect. Binz offered birth records and property documents as proof that Jefferson existed. However, that is not proof. It is evidence
that he existed. The proof
we have that Christ is who He said He is comes from eye witness accounts, several hundred in fact. That would be considered actual proof
in a court of law.
The chart above is incomplete. e.g. Before you get to any alternatives beneath 'He is Lord and God' there should be a branch dividing between recognition that there is no actual proof and failing to recognize that there is no actual proof. Regardless, one can still choose to believe or not. Honest believers recognize that matters of faith are just that and don't engage in tortuous post-hoc rationalization to claim that their faith is proven.
Any true believer should always be working towards giving an answer for the hope that lies within themselves.
I can fully understand how an agnostic would consider the chart a tortuous post-hoc rationalization. However, that is your own personal perspective. It was not offered as proof, rather as a visual aid to guide others in a logical sequence of possibilites.
I suppose being convinced that God exists and the subject of faith may seem like a paradox to unbelievers. However, doesn't reality itself require a degree of faith? Certainly the choice to believe "there is no evidence of God existing" requires faith in that statement.
I'll ask you the same question I asked EBL... What proof will satisfy you that not only does God exist but that He is who He says He is?
Originally Posted by El Burro Loco
As far as the proof to satisfy your mind...
Did you read the Lee Strobel book "A Case For Christ yet"?
God said "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart".
There is no doubt in my heart and mind that God exists. He is literally in everything I come in contact with on a daily basis including you. The only thing that clouds that reality is worldly distractions. So I can understand your reluctance to accept that others may have actually sought (and found) Him with all their heart.
Your belief is not proof. It is belief. faith. Not proof. Sorry. Where is the proof?
I never intended to implied my belief is proof for you. I can offer it as a testimony towards evidence for you, however I'm well aware my belief is not proof. In the end it all still comes down to the question you still will not answer.... "What kind of "proof" do you require'?
All this says is that god is relative. If god is relative then there is no one true God, which is in direct contradiction to the teachings of your religion
Not sure what you are talking about here. You'll have to elaborate about your relativity point.
Also, I don't have a "religion".
But if Christ is of God, whether you believe that Christ is the literal son of God, God's mind or soul in human form, or God's direct mouthpiece, it still requires faith that God exists. Unless there is faith in God, there can be not faith that Christ is God's sun.
Nice dance, but you're stepping on your own feet the whole way.
If you want to play semantics with belief in God before belief in Christs words then you are just choosing to spin your wheels over a non-issue.
Which came first the chicken or the egg?
Doesn't really matter just fry it up and lets eat!
ahhh, the old moving target trick! I love this one! See, we were talking about proof of God, not belief that Jesus existed and claimed he was Christ. Two different things.
So what proof do you have that God exists? It's okay to be honest and say "I have nothing but my faith". after all, that's the entire basis of your religion.
In a court of law... hundreds of eye witness accounts that attest to His resurrection after He was slaughtered and hung to die on a cross for the sins of humanity. Christ and the prophets said this would happen and the eye witness accounts confirm it to have been a true statement.
Again, there is a deeper and more personal proof that convinces me without a shadow of a doubt that not only does God exist but His Son is who He says He is.
That same proof (belief/faith if you prefer) that has convicted, assured and satisfied me and countless others is obviously not going to help you make up your mind, however it is available to you if and when you are ready.
Once (or if) you can get past your arguing for the sake of arguing, consider what I've told you and pursue Him with your heart.